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PLEASE HELP ME diagnose this engine/transmission issue....

19K views 53 replies 9 participants last post by  paradisedude 
#1 ·
I finally took ownership of a 2006 Prowler 650 XT H1 from a friend. The Prowler has an issue that I posted on this thread but just thought I would give an update. http://www.prowlertalk.net/forums/a...possibly-buy-used-prowler-need-your-help.html

A quick summary. Original owner was climbing a hill and forgot he had the emergency brake on. All of a sudden the Prowler would not move, but engine would still supposedly run. Original owner took off the belt cover and started to take off the top componants of the motor (air intake, carb, electrical connections, etc.) in preparation to pull the motor to find what was wrong. That was as far as he got before the thing just sat for years.

Belt cover is off, so I can see the belt and it looks fine. I took an oil drain pan and put a mesh over it and drained the oil. There was a very small amount of fine shavings stuck to the magnetic drain plug in the form of a fine sludge, but it was very minimal. I was reading about bevel gear issues and was sort of wondering if I would see chunks of metal come out, but I did not. So where do I go from here? What is the likely issue? What can I do to eliminate other things?

Right now the thing will not run because the carb, etc. is off. Will I gain a major advantage in troubleshooting if I put the thing back together and running to test certain things? If not, is it better just to save time and continue where it is now and pull the motor out and start tearing apart?

Any help greatly appreciated......
 
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#4 ·
How do I check this? What am I looking for? Or do I need to get the thing running to check these items?
 
#6 ·
How did running it with the belt cover off ruin the one way bearing?
 
#7 ·
the belt cover keeps the primary shaft from wobbeling around. i was doing clutch work and backed it out of the shop so i could finish up the next morning. when i did apparently the belt tension pulled the shaft to the rear and cocked the drum in the bearing (which is actually a roller clutch) and it goulded the drum and killed the bearing.
 
#8 ·
Quick Update.......

Just a quick update. I have not had time to put the thing back together, but this morning I rotated the driven pulley in the transmission by hand. This rotated both the front and rear drive shafts and the Prowler did roll forward.

So based off of this, it has to be something on the drive side, correct? I have not had a chance to study the parts breakdown as far as how this transmission works, but based off of what I just said what is the likely culprit on the drive side (assuming the motor still runs as well)?

One other thing. The gear shift lever is out of the machine right now. It was originally in neutral (I know because I could push the machine before), but I shifted the linkage down one to put it into gear so I could rotate the transmission driven pulley to see what happened. Well, now I can't get the shift linkage to pull up and shift back into neutral? Any ideas why?
 
#9 ·
Just a quick update. I have not had time to put the thing back together, but this morning I rotated the driven pulley in the transmission by hand. This rotated both the front and rear drive shafts and the Prowler did roll forward.

So based off of this, it has to be something on the drive side, correct? I have not had a chance to study the parts breakdown as far as how this transmission works, but based off of what I just said what is the likely culprit on the drive side (assuming the motor still runs as well)?

One other thing. The gear shift lever is out of the machine right now. It was originally in neutral (I know because I could push the machine before), but I shifted the linkage down one to put it into gear so I could rotate the transmission driven pulley to see what happened. Well, now I can't get the shift linkage to pull up and shift back into neutral? Any ideas why?
Did you rock it back and forth while trying to shift? I would also check the wet clutch.
 
#10 ·
I'm not an expert by any means when it comes to this stuff but it sounds like a wet clutch issue.. if it were me that might be a good place to start.. I'm keeping my fingers crossed you find a simple fix! Good luck
 
#11 · (Edited)
Thanks for the replies so far. I rocked the machine like mentioned and was finally able to get the thing to shift. So thanks for the heads up on that.....

I'll have to look into the wet clutch and what is involved with that. How do I tell if that is the problem? Any tricks to checking this? I'm still really thinking about re-installing everything back together and get it running to see what it does....
 
#12 ·
Thanks for the replies so far. I rocked the machine like mentioned and was finally able to get the thing to shift. So thanks for the heads up on that.....

I'll have to look into the wet clutch and what is involved with that. How do I tell if that is the problem? Any tricks to checking this? I'm still really thinking about re-installing everything back together and get it running to see what it does....
That's what I would do, get it running first. Make sure the piston isn't froze from sitting or you could brake something when you turn it over. I've never been into the wet clutch but I do remember reading a breakdown on airdams website. Also theres an online manual thats pretty good.
 
#13 ·
Another Quick Update, but Need Some Help and Input

So I started putting everything back together as much as I could figure out. Most of the electrical connectors were all cut and dry except I have one two pronged connector that I don't know where it goes. It has a black and red wire and it is part of the same bundle that attaches to the reverse override switch. CAN SOMEBODY TELL ME WHERE THIS CONNECTOR PLUGS INTO?

One other odd thing I've noticed is on the instrument panel display. It lights up red, but the readout screen on the right is all blank (just blank red). It does not show odometer readings or anything. DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHAT WOULD CAUSE THIS?

So I tried to start the thing after doing a makeshift battery setup since the stock one is dead. The engine won't start. It tries to crank but it won't start up. So I pulled off the line going from the "Vacuum Pulse Fuel Pump" to the carburetor and there is no fuel coming out of it. Not sure what is creating the vacuum but the supply line is going to the metal fitting on the right side of the carburetor while the vacuum line is connecting to a plastic fitting on the top left side of the carburetor (is this correct)? There is fuel in the tank. ANY INPUT ON WHY I'M NOT GETTING FUEL OUT OF THAT SUPPLY LINE? I would find it hard to believe that the vacuum pulse fuel pump would be bad, but I guess it could be. WHAT CREATES THE VACUUM TO START THE FUEL FLOW?
 
#14 ·
CAN SOMEBODY TELL ME WHERE THIS CONNECTOR PLUGS INTO?
thats an aux plug and doesnt have to plug into anything. should be able to tap it if you need power to a switch in the cluster of switches by the shifter.

your last post reminds me of why we have owned nothing other than cat's efi engines since the late 90's. went through some sleds that had weak/bad cankcase pulse and would smoke fuel pumps.
 
#16 ·
Thanks for the information on the aux. plug, and thanks for the information on the pump lever on the carb. I saw that lever, but didn't know what it was for. I was looking around to see if something was supposed to be connected to it. I'll try it and see if it gets some fuel flowing.
 
#17 ·
Fuel Shut Off

Is there a fuel shut off petcock on these things like you see on ATV's? I don't see anything. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't getting fuel flow because of something simple like that?
 
#19 ·
Well, got the thing started for like a second using starting fluid, but it would die as soon as the starting fluid burned off. The thing still isn't getting fuel flow.

So I hooked up a vacuum hand pump I have. First hooked it to the vacuum port and got no flow. Hooked it to the connection that goes to the carburetor and was able to get gas flow. So in my understanding that tells me the fuel pump is bad, correct?

Found part# 0470-758 online. Since I would have to order one, just wanted to make sure there wasn't a better one or upgrade if I have to spend the money anyway?
 
#21 ·
pcp sells one.
can't remember how much bought it with the accel pump carb.

Prowler Performance Headquarters, Pease Custom Performance Offroad
Thanks for the info, but I think I may have jumped the gun on thinking the fuel pump was bad. I wasn't paying attention to the whole "pulse" thing or understanding it. I assumed it was bad when I used my hand pump on the vacuum port, but it wasn't flowing when I pumped. But what I figured out was that I had to pump,vent, pump, vent, pump, vent and so on to creat the whole "pulse" affect. So I flushed out and cleaned the pump and did the above and the pump appears to be working now.

So today I plan on reinstalling the pump and using my hand pump again to get the flow started to the carb. And then I will try starting the engine again....
 
#22 · (Edited)
Well finally got her running, sort of. Original owner had a fuel line hooked up wrong, and I was just following his lead and hooking it up where it looked like it would go. So now I have that corrected. So she starts up now. Not real good on the throttle rosponse right now as she mostly bogs down and dies when you try to rev it up. I need to double check something in the carb to make sure I have it right since I tore it apart to clean it.

But for a period of time where I was able to rev up the motor in neutral, the primary side drive was spinning fine and rotating the secondary side. I have not had a chance to put it in gear and test it yet as I need to get the thing able to rev consistantly without flooding and dying.

So when I'm able to put it in gear, should I be able to test it without the transmission cover on? I know one person said they burned up their one way gear without the cover on. It would be nice to have the cover off so I can see what is going on. Any input as to what is safe and not safe to test it would be appreciated?
 
#23 ·
He tried to drive it.
Leave your machine on jack stand's.

Also He had the 1000cc and the cover has a bearing support.
I don't believe the H1 motors need the support from the cover.

Someone correct if I am wrong on that statement.

Anyway you will be ok if left on jack stands.
 
#25 ·
New update: Need your input....

So I finally got a carb issue situated and the Prowler is running and throttle is revving fine now. So here is what it is doing so far:

1. Engine runs fine. No abnormal noises.
2. The Dry clutch is spinning fine and driving the driven side fine when I rev the motor up while it is in "neutral". Nothing abnormal seen or heard.

So for about a minute before I had to go to work, I jacked the back tires off the ground and put the thing in forward gear. Revved up the motor and the tires would start to spin, but had a really nasty clunk when doing so. I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I could have sworn that the motor would jostle when I could hear the clunking noise. It was pretty bad to the point I would be afraid to run it this way any further. I know this isn't a lot of info to go on, but maybe you guys could give me some info as to what it DEFINITELY IS NOT, and WHAT IT LIKELY COULD BE?

I was wondering if I should take the belt off and try to test it in gear that way to completely eliminate the drive side? Would this help narrow anything down? Any other pointers on how to test different things is appreciated......?
 
#28 ·
So I finally got a carb issue situated and the Prowler is running and throttle is revving fine now. So here is what it is doing so far:

1. Engine runs fine. No abnormal noises.
2. The Dry clutch is spinning fine and driving the driven side fine when I rev the motor up while it is in "neutral". Nothing abnormal seen or heard.

So for about a minute before I had to go to work, I jacked the back tires off the ground and put the thing in forward gear. Revved up the motor and the tires would start to spin, but had a really nasty clunk when doing so. I'm not 100% sure on this one, but I could have sworn that the motor would jostle when I could hear the clunking noise. It was pretty bad to the point I would be afraid to run it this way any further. I know this isn't a lot of info to go on, but maybe you guys could give me some info as to what it DEFINITELY IS NOT, and WHAT IT LIKELY COULD BE?

I was wondering if I should take the belt off and try to test it in gear that way to completely eliminate the drive side? Would this help narrow anything down? Any other pointers on how to test different things is appreciated......?
Sure sounds like bevel gear issues. Drain the oil and look for chunks.
 
#29 ·
I drained the oil first thing when I took ownership. Did not notice any metal debris. So I added oil back in to continue on with the testing, and now we are at this point.

I planned on disconnecting the drive shafts to eliminate the possibility of a differential issue. And then from that point, taking off the drive belt and seeing if the noise disappears (which I have a feeling it will). My gut says it is in the secondary drive somewhere. So maybe this bevel gear that I've read so much about (despite not seeing metal in oil).....

I read a lot of things about bevel gear issues, but I have yet to find a good write up or any videos on how to do it. Does anybody know of a good "how to" on this subject?
 
#31 ·
it would seem to me that if it didnt make any noise in neutral pulling the belt isnt needed. i would do the drive shaft first, while your there spin the diff with your hand, and the output. also, watch the front shaft. it should spin with the rear output shaft since the front enguages in the diff.
 
#32 ·
I pulled the drive shafts and the thing still made the clunking noise with them off. So it looks like probably the bevel gears or something else in the secondary drive assembly. I already disconnected everything and have the motor ready to hoist out. Should be a "fun" little project.....:D
 
#33 · (Edited)
Figured out question I had, but don't know how to delete this post....
 
#36 · (Edited)
Have both the top, left side, and most of the right side torn off so far. So I'm pretty close to separating the cases to get to the secondary drive and see the damage. So far it hasn't been too bad of a job.
 
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